Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

65

Left the WT but why the loss of your faith in God?

by Luo bou to in

jw
friends

sure the wt deceived you with its claim to be god's channel but why for so many is there a subsequent loss of faith in god ?

it puzzles me and makes me wonder why they were jw's in the first place..

Olin Moyles Ghost

Lots of good comments on this thread--in particular, those of GaryBuss and Iquit.

This may sound strange, and it certainly doesn't apply to every JW, but I think that a lot of Witnesses are actually not very religious. I know I wasn't, and the same with most of my JW friends. JW-ism is much more like a job than a religion. You attend business meetings, make sales calls, and turn in monthly time sheets. (GaryBuss points this out quite often on his threads). There's lots of office politics, and you get "promoted" if you have good numbers...and brown-nosing the bosses helps, too.

And when it comes to theology, lots of Witnesses self-identify based on what they don't believe (trinity, hell, soul) than what they do believe. JWs (at least the ones I know) love to mock "born-agains" and ridicule their teachings as stupid and contradictory (e.g., how can Jesus be his own Father?). This leaves former JWs primed to become secular humanists. To paraphrase Richard Dawkins, the JWs were already atheists about lots of gods (including the Trinitarian god of Christendom)...now they're just going one god further.

40

"And how old is the Proclaimers book?"

by passwordprotected in

i had a frank discussion with my parents yesterday that ended up in the cul-de-sac of "how did the organisation start?

" i told them that all they need to know about the origins of the org are in the proclaimers book, of how chuck started his own religion, or how he got his ideas from the adventists and a lovely fellow called barbour and how chuck preached that christ had returned in 1874 and that the last days had started in 1799.. my parents were unwilling to accept this, so i said, "read your proclaimers book!

y'know what my mum's answer to that was?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Like you said , even if it had been written in the 1980s, so what? I would think that a history book that was written closer to the point in time discussed would be more accurate--not less accurate!

It's also interesting that your parents seem to consider WT literature from the 1980s as "old light." You know, the '80s weren't that long ago. I guess Watchtower literature should be sold in the dairy section of the grocery store...it doesn't take long for it to "go bad."

Also, aren't you DF'd/DA'd? Interesting that your JW parents are (1) speaking to you; and (2) speaking about spiritual things to you. I guess they're not toeing the line on shunning. That's a good thing.

45

i am 20 minutes away from a sheparding call........

by oompa in

jw
friends

first one in at least 5 years.......wife does not want to sit in and i just told her if she does not, then i am not either.....this loss of faith thingy has really been rough on our marriage.......i have decided to not bring up a single issue i have........i will relate to them my illustration of the taxi driver who keeps giving out bad directions i posted yesterday.......i think what will surprise them maybe is that my loss of faith goes way beyond wt.......i have lost virtually faith in the bible and god......one has already told the "first place to start is to get going to the meetings again!"....lmao!!!.........

i hope their programed brains can grasp that maybe you need faith in a god first.....then find out what method (or book) he is using to educate us if he wants to....and then if you feel the need....look around to find out if there is a group of folks who all have similar beliefs.........this should be interesting...........oompa.

Olin Moyles Ghost

You've got to let us know how the sheep-herding call goes. Did you or Mrs. Oompa ask for this call? Or is it a result of the recent WT about trying to re-activate those who have drifted away? Or perhaps they were just so excited to see you at the meeting a couple weeks back!

I have one concern: Can they DF you for saying that you have lost faith in the Bible and God? From reading other people's experiences on this site, it appears that they can DF you if you say that you don't believe the GB/WTS is the Faithful and Discreet Slave...and it seems to me that if you don't have faith that the Bible is God's word, then you probably don't believe in the FDS, right? Then, couldn't they DF you for that?

Gotta be "cautious as serpents" in these situations if you want to fade...

7

Why don't JWs follow Christ's ENTIRE command at Matt. 28:19-20?

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

jw
friends

jws take a great deal of pride in the fact that they follow jesus' command at matt.

go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit,teaching them to observe all the things i have commanded you.

i am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.. .

Olin Moyles Ghost

JWs take a great deal of pride in the fact that they follow Jesus' command at Matt. 28:19-20:

Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU . And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

They claim that the JWs must be the true religion because there is no other organized religion in which all members participate in a "preaching and disciple-making work." In particular, JWs criticize other religions that delegate the preaching and disciple-making to a clergy class.

But if you read the verses carefully, you can see that there is a portion of Jesus' command that most JWs have no share in--"baptizing them..." Yes, the WT/JW religion delegates the responsibility for baptism to two or three brothers at a circuit assembly or district convention.

If Jesus' command at Matt. 28:19-20 is a non-delegable duty personally directed to each individual Christian, how can the Witnesses delegate the responsibility for "baptizing" to a small group of men? It seems inconsistent to apply the "disciple-making" portion of the command to individuals, but allow the "baptizing" portion to be delegated. What scriptural support exists for this arbitrary distinction?

22

local cong to handle all pioneer additions and deletions

by seeking help in

read in letter.

no longer using the branch for permission.. all done locally... am i the only one who heard that?.

old light?

Olin Moyles Ghost

This would be an interesting development...as sir82 mentioned, the purpose would be to further insulate that WBTS from any legal liability for actions by members/elders of individual congregations.

Speaking of the little pink cards (comment by "Finally-Free"), does the WBTS still refer to married female pioneers as "Mrs. John David Smith" (i.e., a "Mrs." followed by her husband's name)? I always thought that was strange.

28

Do you think JW's really know the "Truth" about the "Truth"?

by Quirky1 in

jw
friends

with the many threads surfacing here focusing on internet access opening eyes of beleivers and the unsuccessful d2d work, how many do you think really know the truth and are just going with the motions?

and if so, what is there reasoning?

family, freinds, etc...

Olin Moyles Ghost

No.

Most of my JW friends don't even know what the WT teaches--outside of the basics. More specifically, they don't care. For example, lots of JWs don't recognize that the WT teaches that only JWs can survive the Battle of Armageddon. Also, many don't understand the generation doctrine. Most have no clue about the wacky teachings in the Revelation "Climax" book (trumpet blasts==district conventions, etc.).

It's difficult (and pointless) to explain flaws in WT doctrine to a JW who doesn't even understand the doctrine!

You know, I think the lack of "spirituality" among today's JWs actually benefits the WT Society. As long as they don't dig deep enough to see the flaws in the teachings, most are content to take the path of least resistance and muddle along as JWs.

88

British Sociologist Predicts Possible Collapse in Jehovah's Witness Numbers

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

a newly published article by british sociologist david voas argues jehovah's witnesses may be about to experience a collapse in numbers.

contrary to claims by american sociologist rodney stark who predicts strong future growth for jehovah's witnesses, voas shows that jehovah's witnesses' efforts at recruiting new members have become increasingly unsuccessful over the past few decades: the rate of increase has steadily declined, and the number of hours each publisher must preach to produce an extra convert has gone up substantially.

voas suggests a reason for the stagnation may be that there is a natural limit to the number of people in a given population that are susceptible to conversion to sectarian groups like jehovah's witnesses - the 'carrying capacity' of the population, and that the limit has largely been reached.

Olin Moyles Ghost

I'm not buying it. The author's premise is based on JWs becoming discouraged/disillusioned because of lack of success in converting people in the ministry. Well, as anyone who has been a JW should recognize--JWs don't care whether they convert anyone...they just go out in service to count time and keep the elders off their backs.

I venture to say that (at least in the U.S.), a majority of publishers have never had a Bible Student outside their family progress to baptism. I know folks who have pioneered for years and never brought anyone to baptism. It doesn't stop them from pioneering--much less cause them to leave the org.

6

Aid book spotted at local store

by Jim_TX in

yesterday, my wife and i were at a local thrift store.

we wound up in the used book section, and i happened to spot a pale blue thick book on one of the lower shelves.. i thought to myself... 'hmmm... i seem to remember a book like this one...', and picked it up.

sure enough, it was an 'aid' book.. i opened it up and flipped to a section - then chuckled to myself.. i handed the book to my wife and said... "here was my favorite picture in the whole book.".

Olin Moyles Ghost

Hey Undercover, you're correct that Ray Franz had a large role in writing the Aid book. As he recounts the tale, Nate Knorr asked him to take the lead on it back in the late 60s. Ray was appointed to the G.B. in 1971, the year the Aid book was released.

The Insight books replaced the Aid book in 1988 if I remember correctly. A large portion of Insight is the same as the Aid book, but with larger font and prettier pictures.

34

New Video: Is "paradise earth" a Bible teaching?

by Awakened at Gilead in

jehovah's witnesses proclaim god's purpose to bring a paradise earth that will rid mankind of all of its problems.

sounds great, right?

the only problem is that it's not based on the bible.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Nice video. Thanks for your hard work.

I've heard the evangelical teaching that they will return from heaven after 1000 years to repopulate the earth. I used to derisively refer to this as the "yo-yo" theory--because you start out on the earth, then go up to heaven (rapture), then come back down after the 1000 years.

I guess this yo-yo theory is a way to reconcile (1) the fact that the NT strongly indicates that all Christians go to heaven with (2) statements like "the meek shall inherit the earth" and the OT verses from Isaiah that the JWs use to describe a paradise earth.

When I was a believing JW, I never understood why the NT didn't discuss the paradise. It just didn't make sense Jesus wouldn't discuss the hope for millions--probably billions--of people during his ministry. Of course, I reconciled it using the typical JW "NT was written for the anointed" reasoning.

10

Christ presence started in 1914: Acknowledge since 1925?

by Nick! in

christ presence started in 1914: acknowledged since 1925?.

according to the second wt article in the march 15th edition of this year, paragraph 4 states that (translation) jehovahs witnesses recognize since 1925 that the first world war and the events which followed, constitute a clear evidence that christ presence in his heavenly kingdom started in 1914.. could someone kindly scan the english version of the above article and post-it online?.

it is the first time, at least personally, that i read such a statement in a wt literature.. according to the book captive of a concept by don cameron, chapter 3 page 22-23, the first time the wt recognized that christs presence happened in 1914, was only in 1943.. how is it possible that this article of 2009 points to the year 1925 as the time when the jw first recognized the true event associated with 1914?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

In 1925, the WT printed a series of articles titled "Birth of the Nation." This basically set up the framework for the current JW doctrines related to the Kingdom. This is when Rutherford really started to distinguish himself theologically from Russell.

While the Watchtower still taught that Jesus' presence began in 1874, this series of articles asserted that Jesus' presence in kingdom power began in 1914. In other words, Jesus became present in 1874, but didn't really do anything until 1914, when he kicked the Devil out of heaven.